Pros and Cons of early neuter please?

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NickyE
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Pros and Cons of early neuter please?

Post by NickyE » Fri Mar 04, 2011 6:01 pm

This morning my Parkie Tempest rushed across to me when I was only straightening up some cardboard outside the cage (I'd just opened the cage doors) and bit me really hard. He was very floofed up but there didn't appear to be any reason for his aggression. The slice on my hand obviously wasn't pumping out but steadily bled for over 4 hours. It did stop a couple of times but opened up again as soon as I made any movement. Anyway, it's stopped now thank goodness.

Tempey isn't yet 5 months old but he is a huge boy. I wouldn't expect a boy to need neutering for hormonal aggression at that age but maybe 'cos he's so well developed....?

Anyway I'm thinking maybe Tardak to start with. I would prefer to see if he settles down, but I did that with Turk and at the 4th nasty bite I realised I couldn't risk him hurting one of the others instead of me (I have fairly little concern for damage to me! Although I didn't enjoy sitting at work with bundles of soggy red tissues and my boss saying "Go to A&E").

With Tempey being young still, I'm not sure if there are any reasons why it could be bad for him to get neutered. And I don't know if there are any health benefits claimed for male neuters?
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Re: Pros and Cons of early neuter please?

Post by Amzy » Fri Mar 04, 2011 7:20 pm

Hi Nicky,

I think first things first you need to assess whether this was actually a hormonal bite. I think you may need to take factors into consideration, did you smell threatening? did you smell of food? did you smell of your cats? did you smell of your new boy, Murphy? I have got badly chomped on many occaisons but I never ever assume it is hormonal at first, I like to look at the other factors.

I would not EVER put a rat under a surgery unless I had tried every other route first (Sarah recently lost her healthy Flapjack at 10 months from a neuter). I know I don't directly own boys myself, but my housemate has had boys for 2 and a half years, and I have also spent a hell of alot of time with Raz's 20+ boys (so I have had experience of hormones). I like to think I know the park rats very well (not to sound boasty) but I like to think I know their characters, and behaviour, and I am interested in watching all 70+ of them develop throughout their lives and watch their genetics etc (but thats another story :roll: ).

I have watched the Muffin's go through their hormonal stage, and yes, they were little 'so n sos' towards the other boys, but they have now grown out of it. I also spend alot of time with Moonie, and Rebel - Tempest's brothers and I have not once seen any form of hormonal behaviour from them towards either a human-being, or another rat. They are actually two of the squishiest park rats that I know. I know I need to take into account individual differences here, and all rats are different. However, I am not sure whether hormonal problems are deemed genetic - look at the Bristol boys for example. Nearly all of the boys from those 2 litters have had to be de-nadded due to hormonal problems - this tells me that hormonal issues can and may be genetic (not genetic savvy - saying my thoughts here - please dont quote me!!).

I guess, what I am trying to say - is that explore every avenue first including Tardek..... and to be pretty honest I believe 5 months is too young to neuter.

Sorry about the essay, scritches to your lovely brood

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Re: Pros and Cons of early neuter please?

Post by NickyE » Fri Mar 04, 2011 7:38 pm

I agree I wouldn't want to neuter at 5 months. I had just put food in the cage as I do every morning. Unlikely to have smelled of cats any more than I have any other time - probably much less than other times in fact. It was a real unprovoked temper outburst - I put the breakfast in the cage which had been shut up over night, then opened the lower door. Temp came out and I picked him up and said "Don't you want breakfast?" and put him back by the food - all sweet and gentle and nothing i haven't done before and it been seen as fun/play. He must have come back down. I was straightening up the sheets of cardboard I slot against the cage bars when the Bears are out, pushing them back against the cupboard so they didn't get in the way of the door and he just rushed across and CHOMP

It is crazy at his age, there's no way it *should* be hormonal, but it did properly look like it. I'm certainly not going to rush into anything, hence the questions on here. However having been there with Turk and made excuse after excuse for him....and remember that Noodles is Turk's brother and there was nothing from him. I agree this hasn't been seen in the Parkies, but it wasn't expected in Turk either.

Definitely not rushing into anything but it was quite scary this morning and more than anything else I do not want to be in a position where one of my other rats is badly injured and I think 'should have done something'. Me getting hurt doesn't worry me in the same way
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Re: Pros and Cons of early neuter please?

Post by NickyE » Sun Mar 06, 2011 5:43 pm

The little *tyke just had another go :( I was cleaning the cage, reaching up and in to take poos out of the top hammock (which is now a litter tray, apparently) and he came across all huffy and bit my hand. Broke the skin but it wasn't very bad as I realised what he was about to do and managed to yell HEY and get my hand out. Think I'm going to have to try the Tardak injection :(




*not the word I used :lol:
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Re: Pros and Cons of early neuter please?

Post by ScattieMcRattie » Sun Mar 06, 2011 6:26 pm

Hello
i asked the same thing of Fr a few months back, before christmas and i got some very interesting replies, some of whihc were over my head but might be usefull to you

*hunts around for link*
Hmmmm now were did i leave that thread :roll:

found it. it was in the last place i looked :wink:
here you go :lol:

http://www.fancy-rats.co.uk/community/v ... 4&t=142240

there was a lot of conjecture avbout weather early castratin has an impact on HLD in the end i didnt get my boys done, until i had to get chester dont as he was my last ratty and needed to go live with some girls by which time he was over six months anyway
" and the muttering grew to a grumbling; and the grumbling grew to a mighty rumbling; and out of the houses the rats came tumbling,"
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Re: Pros and Cons of early neuter please?

Post by NickyE » Sun Mar 06, 2011 6:36 pm

that's brilliant thanks Scattie. I didn't do a search, but your link has given me lots of info.

Tempey is HUGE for his age and I think maybe that's about lots of hormones in part (as well as Amzy's excellent foster-grandmothering!) but I really don't want to neuter until he's turned 6months.

So my next question is, please, are there any health problems associated with giving Tardak at about 5 months?
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Re: Pros and Cons of early neuter please?

Post by tagalong » Sun Mar 06, 2011 6:48 pm

Yes it has side effects -found this info:
Transient side-effects of increased appetite, polydipsia and polyuria (excesive thirst and urination) have occasionally been seen following administration of Tardak. Controlling food intake will prevent an increase in bodyweight. However, where these effects are excessive, therapy should cease. As some progestagen injections can cause local changes in the hair coat such as lightening of colour and/or hair loss, it is recommended that subcutaneous injections are given at an inconspicuous site, e.g. inner surface of the thigh. Tardak should be used with great care when animals are under treatment with other steroids.
I've had many bucks castrated at all ages and a couple of the older ones went on to develop HLD -also the tests carried out were on 3 week old bucks which to me is different to say 8 week old bucks when they are sexually mature
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Re: Pros and Cons of early neuter please?

Post by ScattieMcRattie » Sun Mar 06, 2011 6:57 pm

personally i have no experience of tardak i dint even know it existed until a few months ago thanks to this forum :) so i can t be any use there but i think Tagalong covered it :)

am glad my link has been of use to you :luck:
" and the muttering grew to a grumbling; and the grumbling grew to a mighty rumbling; and out of the houses the rats came tumbling,"
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Re: Pros and Cons of early neuter please?

Post by Ratgirl@RatRitz » Mon Mar 07, 2011 7:08 am

You could try him on Agnus Castus in an attempt to 'take the edge off' his hormone levels until you're happy to castrate him ... if he still needs it by then, the Agnus Castus may be enough to get him through the adjustment period and you may find that he does calm down again as he matures both physically and mentally. Agnus Castus doesn't have side effects like Tardak and is a 'safer' option if you have any concerns over Tardak ... it's certainly something I would try before Tardak in a case like this.
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Re: Pros and Cons of early neuter please?

Post by NickyE » Mon Mar 07, 2011 7:35 am

Vic that's a great suggestion, thank you! How is it given, please - a supplement? Just from Health food shop?
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Re: Pros and Cons of early neuter please?

Post by Ratgirl@RatRitz » Mon Mar 07, 2011 8:03 am

You'd need a standardised extract. It comes in a tablet form and a liquid form, I have experience with the tablet form and have used this brand - http://www.healthstore.uk.com/p70315/qu ... blets.html

It's not forced to work, but it is relatively cheap, and it is worth a shot I think. I'd try 1/4er of a tablet once a day, rising to 1/4er of a tablet twice a day if once a day does nothing, and see if you get a response.
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Re: Pros and Cons of early neuter please?

Post by NickyE » Mon Mar 07, 2011 5:54 pm

I got these which are filled capsules rather than tablets - hopefully they're OK and I use about 1/4 of the powder?
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Re: Pros and Cons of early neuter please?

Post by NickyE » Mon Mar 14, 2011 9:27 pm

Well am about to start the Agnus Castus as he's floofing so much. I was cleaning out their cage tonight and had the wooden hut and summer house igloo out on the floor. These have only been in his cage yet he's rubbing himself up against them...and everything else in the room. He's climbing up me and I don't want to have to be afraid that he's going to bite my face :( Even when Turk was hormonal and I did get 4 pretty nasty bites over several weeks before I got him denadded, I was never this wary :( I don't want to have to be afraid of picking him up. It can't be nice to be angry like this. I don't think it's Murphy being here as he seemed to think the Murph was fab and now Murph has a bad face (abscess) and I don't want anyone else catching it with claws or whatever, they haven't been meeting and Tempey is standing up on the bin under the shelf Murph's cage is on trying to see him, totally unfloofed.

I did have to tell him he was silly this morning though when he stood in what I'm calling Floofy Corner in the cage and floofed and his back feet slid out from under him 'cos he was standing on a sort of snuggle cup bed which moved!
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Re: Pros and Cons of early neuter please?

Post by Rose's Mischief » Wed Mar 16, 2011 8:49 pm

Following this thread, I really hope the agnus castus works Nicky :)
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Re: Pros and Cons of early neuter please?

Post by NickyE » Wed Mar 16, 2011 8:52 pm

Well I thought he was calmer last night but today he's doing his stupid thing of standing on the highest shelf in the cage at the front and going Ffft Ffft Fffft at me. Floofy corner is still a location :S

My homoeopath recommended a remedy....that may be my next thing
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