Baytril Dosage

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Ratty_Rhian
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Baytril Dosage

Post by Ratty_Rhian » Thu Jul 07, 2011 7:22 am

I've recently changed vets and I'm trying to convince my new vet about the minimum baytril dosage. She is refusing to prescribe above what is licenced by the manufacturer - Bayer which is 0.2mg/kg which is far too low so I've not been giving it which she knows. She has also found information in books about giving more than Bayer say but no evidence of why this information is correct.

Anyway, does anyone have any info on where Bayer came up with this low dose and does anyone have any good papers on studies which have been done to find out the correct dosage? Until I can prove that this dose is too low she won't budge but says that she understands my concerns regarding antibiotic resistance but as it's the only drug licenced for rats and has a specified dosage for them that's what she's sticking to.

If I still can't convince her can anyone recommend another broad spectrum ab which is good for respy rats that I can ask for instead? From what I can tell she has a decent exotics formulary so should be able to prescribe a sensible dosage of something which isn't licensed.
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Re: Baytril Dosage

Post by Felix » Thu Jul 07, 2011 8:09 am

I really feel for you, it's so frustrating!
I hope people can come forward with answers about the baytril.

I've tried zithromax with success, at 0.2 ml twice a day. Recently used with 2 for resp conditions (one was on a doe weight 410g and the other a slightly heavier buck).
(it also really helps that zithro is rather tasty)

(Edited to add - that dosage was for zithromax 200mgin a 5ml suspension)

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Re: Baytril Dosage

Post by The Magic Rat » Thu Jul 07, 2011 9:13 am

I comment as a relatively novice rat keeper but Baytril has proved to be a 'magic bullet' for our rats.

My vet has always prescribed a single drop from the syringe, twice daily but remarked that you can't really overdose so if it is two drops by accident then don't worry.

I normally add a little water to a Malted Shreddie or a little Weetabix on a teaspoon and then the Baytril gets absorbed and the rats never seem to notice it. A small amount of yoghurt on a teaspoon also works well.

Using Baytril this way I have seen our rats bounce back from an ear infection, several respiratory infections and a virus that I thought was the end for one of them. We also keep Gerbils and Baytril helped with a very sore nail on a hind foot

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Re: Baytril Dosage

Post by Bazu » Thu Jul 07, 2011 10:35 am

As best I'm aware, that dose is basically prescribed for small furries, but when they worked it out it would have been with things like hamsters and guinea pigs in mind, which - as we know - have a very different metabolism etc to rats. Sauce for the goose isn't always sauce for the gander!

The only source I know of that might support you is here, which comes from the RMCA and says under Enrofloxacin (Baytril) "[the RMCA have] found that using the recommended dose, symptoms return very soon after ending treatment (although some rat owners report having excellent results). Better results have been achieved using much higher doses (as shown)."

Hopefully someone else can provide something more concrete :)

ETA: Also found this, and while they're talking about injecting baytril rather than administering orally, it's definitely at the dose we'd hope for. Not sure if that'd help sway your vet though, since they might dismiss it as "they're injecting, it's different" or similar...
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Re: Baytril Dosage

Post by Amzy » Thu Jul 07, 2011 10:55 am

Have you suggested signing a declaration for the drugs to 'save her back' as it were?

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Re: Baytril Dosage

Post by Ratty_Rhian » Thu Jul 07, 2011 11:04 am

Thanks people :). I already mentioned I wanted to try Zithromax so will ask again in my next appointment and will try and get a few sources of dosages together.

Bazu-thanks for that. I already have the RMCA one I was going to take along as it's written by a vet. The university one is fab. I will try and dig out info to take along as well about differences (or not) on the efficacy of administering AB's orally or SC. I'm happy to go with injections as long as I'm allowed to do them myself fo I can be sure they are done sub-cut and not intradermally as that'a what causes the burns.
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Re: Baytril Dosage

Post by Ratty_Rhian » Thu Jul 07, 2011 11:08 am

Amzy, yes, I've agreed to sign a waiver but she's not budging as to her what the manufacturer says is what she professionally has to stick to. I'm new there so it's tricky. I'm sure we can find a compromise eventually as she is very willing to go out of her way to find stuff out so she does care and want more knowledge.
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Re: Baytril Dosage

Post by Ratty_Rhian » Thu Jul 07, 2011 10:11 pm

Bazu wrote:
The only source I know of that might support you is here, which comes from the RMCA and says under Enrofloxacin (Baytril) "[the RMCA have] found that using the recommended dose, symptoms return very soon after ending treatment (although some rat owners report having excellent results). Better results have been achieved using much higher doses (as shown)."
Well, I've just compared the datasheet from Bayer and what it says in the RMCA drug chart and they actually do sort of agree. It's not actually the 0.1ml per 100g that everyone seems to be quoting. It's 10mg per kg according to the RMCA and 5mg per kg according to Bayer although the Rat health guide page says 5mg per kg -10mg per kilo as does the NFRS guide. Baytril 2.5% contains 25mg active ingredient per ml so a 500g rat would need 0.2ml twice daily for the RMCA guidelines and 0.1ml twice daily for the Bayer. This still isn't the minimum which everyone quotes which would be at least 0.25ml for a 500g rat upto 1ml twice daily if you go with the 4x value that everyone seems to quote as the "safe" amount. LD50 has been found to be over 5000mg/kg by the way.

Can anyone shed some light?
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Re: Baytril Dosage

Post by neela » Thu Jul 07, 2011 11:13 pm

This is written by a UK vet and might be useful. Best of luck :luck:
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Re: Baytril Dosage

Post by Street Spirit » Thu Jul 07, 2011 11:14 pm

10mg/kg is what the NFRS recommend, but you can go higher.

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Re: Baytril Dosage

Post by Ratty_Rhian » Fri Jul 08, 2011 7:01 am

neela wrote:This is written by a UK vet and might be useful. Best of luck :luck:
Thanks but that still says 5-10mg/kg with nothing about going higher. Trying to find where we are getting the upto 4 times 0.1 ml per 100g split into 2 doses. It's proving tricky.
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Re: Baytril Dosage

Post by Ratty_Rhian » Fri Jul 08, 2011 1:12 pm

Street Spirit wrote:10mg/kg is what the NFRS recommend, but you can go higher.
The NFRS book says 5-10mg per kg and to use the higher end of the dosage for dosage range for severe infections. It doesn't say that you can go higher than 10.
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Re: Baytril Dosage

Post by acapae_wolf » Fri Jul 08, 2011 2:07 pm

Ratty_Rhian wrote:
Street Spirit wrote:10mg/kg is what the NFRS recommend, but you can go higher.
The NFRS book says 5-10mg per kg and to use the higher end of the dosage for dosage range for severe infections. It doesn't say that you can go higher than 10.
It doesn't say so, but the LD50 is high (4x that maybe?), so if the situation merits it, you can go higher without risking the rats.
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Re: Baytril Dosage

Post by Ratty_Rhian » Fri Jul 08, 2011 2:41 pm

Beri-the LD50 is over 5000 mg/kg. I plan to mention that as the respy rat has already had 0.2ml twice daily (she's 300g) but the vet isn't keen to deviate from what she knows is safe. I've just got to convince her that a slight AB overdose just results in runny poo, nothing more serious.
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Re: Baytril Dosage

Post by acapae_wolf » Fri Jul 08, 2011 2:46 pm

Then why quibble if you know the figure? I am assuming that is what Ann meant by saying higher is also acceptable.
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