To breed or not?

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aquajen9
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Re: To breed or not?

Post by aquajen9 » Wed Aug 06, 2008 9:19 am

mupsy wrote:Just out of interest... IS there any way to guess on colours?


Yes. They'd probably all be Black Hoodeds.
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Jembean
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Re: To breed or not?

Post by Jembean » Wed Aug 06, 2008 9:28 am

philosophyfox wrote:to me it seems selfish to breed because we want to carry on a line of say, our favourite rat's DNA.


Feel like I should point out that's not how it works with ethical breeding (in case anyone interprets it that way) :)

I had an amazing rescue buck, perfect temperament and wonderful health up until his death at 25 months - I could have so easily bred from him but didn't because I felt, in accordance with my own ethics, it would be wrong. It makes me very sad to see "ethical" people breeding from rescues, partly because I'm damn bitter that I stuck to my ethics instead of making Emo babies :lol:

What are the reasons to breed Sharon, good question.
Everyone has a different goal in mind and therefore different reasons for doing it.
Personally the reason I see amongst most of those who I would count as good breeders is that they want a better future for fancy rats :)

Some though, like some rescues, only do it for the status and the kudos I'm sure, but I wouldn't consider them good breeders (or good rescues).
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Re: To breed or not?

Post by FurryFriends » Wed Aug 06, 2008 11:26 am

I am glad you made that decision. Too many animals have died for no reason other than no places available to justify more being bred.

Emma

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mupsy
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Re: To breed or not?

Post by mupsy » Wed Aug 06, 2008 11:35 am

I've contacted a local breeder to see if i can help out in any way with taking on "un sellable" rats (too old or rescues)
Would it not be more ethical to have.. say one litter from one rat? rather than to keep breeding the same girl after each litter?
So black/darker colours would be more dominant than the lighter shades?
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Re: To breed or not?

Post by LisaLQ » Wed Aug 06, 2008 11:43 am

Most good breeders dont breed from the same doe repeatedly. Most only do one litter from one doe, or two at most if there is good reason to.

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Re: To breed or not?

Post by WigglyRat » Wed Aug 06, 2008 7:12 pm

Ok, Guessing at colours,
Black is a dominant colour - if a rat carries no other colours, or only recessive colours, he's an agouti. If he is not agouti, he's always a black in this situation. But, a black rat can serectly be carrying colours as recessives. If one of the colours he carries happens to be champagne (pink eye, or 'p' gene), then they would be about 50-50 black hoodeds / champagne hoodeds. However, if they are both carrying other colours, they could produce other colours too...there's no way of knowing what they carry though, without knowing some ancestry.

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Re: To breed or not?

Post by Vicki_of_Abno » Wed Aug 06, 2008 7:48 pm

WigglyRat wrote:Ok, Guessing at colours,
Black is a dominant colour - if a rat carries no other colours, or only recessive colours, he's an agouti. If he is not agouti, he's always a black in this situation. But, a black rat can serectly be carrying colours as recessives. If one of the colours he carries happens to be champagne (pink eye, or 'p' gene), then they would be about 50-50 black hoodeds / champagne hoodeds. However, if they are both carrying other colours, they could produce other colours too...there's no way of knowing what they carry though, without knowing some ancestry.


I've seen so many people saying black is dominant ...

On the A locus, black is recessive, meaning if a rat is black it can't carry agouti, whereas agouti is dominant on that locus and black can be carried by an agouti rat.

On other loci, recessives create different colours from a base of black or agouti usually. Which means many recessives can be carried by an agouti or black rat without being expressed (you need two of the recessive alleles, one from each parent, for the colour to be expressed), but black is not dominant, it's the 'base' colour for the rat.

Sorry I always feel the need to correct that :oops:
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Re: To breed or not?

Post by DogRose » Wed Aug 06, 2008 8:16 pm

Stricty speaking, on the A locus, self is recessive and agouti is dominant (whatever base colour might be there) the self is not necessarily black nor the agouti black based.
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Re: To breed or not?

Post by LisaLQ » Wed Aug 06, 2008 8:37 pm

I love all this genetics talk, it makes me giggle. Because at the end of the day, all calculations and punnet squares made and prepared and percentages predicted.....nature can sometimes prove all theories wrong :lol:

We can only guess - life's full of surprises...

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Re: To breed or not?

Post by Solar » Wed Aug 06, 2008 9:32 pm

Genetic talk is more of a guideline then a rule, although most follow how they are supposed to, even when something unexpected pops up.

Regards breeding; Although you said you're not going to do it anyway. :)

Not only that there are hundreds of rats being pts or released into a field because rescues are too full up to take anymore in (I'm not exgatuating here)

but there is the unknown genetics that are lurking in the background of an apparant healthy rat.

For example, I have lost two of my rats recently to cancer/facical tumours at only 1 years old. They were perfectly healthy up til then. And it slowly ate away their faces and spread into thier ears and throats until one had to be pts or he would've have died anyway while the other died in his sleep. It happened one after the other a month apart, so just as I got over one death the other started the same way shortly after. They were rescues just sadly bred for the sake of money. And most of their family has had cancer or resp problems. Could you live with yourself if you were the one who brought these rats into the world? Caused these problems because you wanted to breed your fav rat?

I also have rats with resportory problems for most of their older lives. They're only over 1 year and the other 2 just under.

I also have one boy who had to be neutered at 1 year and a bit because he became so aggressive that he had to be seperated until three weeks after being neutered, thankfully he's back with them, but is riddled with tumours. I mean there are loads of them on his back end and on his legs, they're small so far. He's not even one and a half. One sibling died before reaching a year, another has tumours too. donno about the others though, but from what I hear they have resp problems like my other one. Could you feel comfortable that if you breed this is what could happen? Aggression so bad that they have to be neutered or live the rest of their lives alone? Or riddled with tumours before they're 1 1/2 years?

So there are other factors to consider then just how many homes you're taking away from rescues, but what lives you would be creating too. Unless their reletive's health are known you are playing russian roulette with lives. Sometimes it's fine, other times it's very, very bad. With monatored lines it can cut down the risk of genetic diseases popping up. And people who usually go for well bred lines are either always going to get rats from well bred lines or nothing, or have recently lost rats to terrible illnesses that cut their lives short and need at least one rat that won't suffer from resp problems.
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Re: To breed or not?

Post by DogRose » Wed Aug 06, 2008 11:22 pm

I've had unexpected colours turn up in litters but never anything unexplainable if you understand the genetics, I've never bred anything where I've said 'but thats genetically impossible!'
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Re: To breed or not?

Post by Boodles » Thu Aug 07, 2008 11:07 am

You could guess the colours by what they are but its not a guarantee as you never know what is hidden in the background.
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Re: To breed or not?

Post by mupsy » Thu Aug 07, 2008 11:14 am

oo im all interested now :)
i guess its like people carrying recessive genes of illnesses. My mum and dad both have the gene, but not the illness, I've got the illness, but my brother doesnt.. hes just a carrier. Just luck of the draw really?
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Re: To breed or not?

Post by RW » Sun Aug 10, 2008 9:57 pm

mupsy wrote:oo im all interested now :)
i guess its like people carrying recessive genes of illnesses. My mum and dad both have the gene, but not the illness, I've got the illness, but my brother doesnt.. hes just a carrier. Just luck of the draw really?


Yeah - it's basically impossible to prove a rat doesn't carry a recessive gene. Unless you know the parents genetics you assume they aren't carrying anything, but there is always a chance they will.

With a black and a champange rat, both are black based, so don't have a copy of the dominate 'A' (Agouti/ticked) gene at all, just two copies of the 'a' recessive gene for black. So there is no way they can produce agouti, fawn, silverfawn, cinnamon etc babies. Any babies they produce will be black based. Since one of the rats is black, assuming it doesn't carry anything else the bubs will all be black. If it carries the pink-eye gene (which the champagne must have as that gene causes the colour) you will also get champagne rats. If both carry other genes (e.g. mink) you could get other colours as well, but there is no guarantee. Breeders generally work on what should definitely turn up, and sometimes get nice surprises :)

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Re: To breed or not?

Post by Lillyland » Sun Aug 10, 2008 11:14 pm

Unless someone comes up with a business genotyping breeder rats.............. *has brainwave*

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