What action can we take in response to rodent farm thread?

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What action can we take in response to rodent farm thread?

Post by katielittle25 » Fri Dec 14, 2007 7:59 pm

Hi everyone, we are all disgusted by what we have recently seen in the thread about rodent farms and I though it might be a good idea to discuss what action we can take to stop this industry.

I personally feel very bad about it as 3 of my darlings were bought from a petshop, so I feel I need to do something so I can sleep at night!

If anyone knows of any petitions or organisations who are trying to ban the sale of pets in shops could you let the rest of us know so that we can get involved. Or could we start a new petition on here? I've never done anything like this before so I need advice x
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Re: What action can we take in response to rodent farm thread?

Post by Noddpot » Fri Dec 14, 2007 8:11 pm

Im sure there is some kind of action to be taken, I do not have any suggestions for you, but I am offering my support in any actions towards this trade you are willing to take i.e petitions etc and I hope that others do so too

x

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Re: What action can we take in response to rodent farm thread?

Post by Noddpot » Fri Dec 14, 2007 8:15 pm

I forgot to add:

I think one of the first issues to address is the petshops themselves, are they aware of the extent of wher ethey aquire their animals, and maybe some comparisons between breeders and rodent farms: their ethics, the rats themselves- health, temperament, welfare, diets, the conditions they are kept in.

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Re: What action can we take in response to rodent farm thread?

Post by Solar » Fri Dec 14, 2007 8:27 pm

Someone on here have done just that, a petshop awaness thing or something, they have a website but I have no idea what it's called but they want to educate petshops with leaflets and educate the general public. Sorry I can't be more help.
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Re: What action can we take in response to rodent farm thread?

Post by Ratty Bob » Fri Dec 14, 2007 8:38 pm

Wyvedale stopped selling animals as a direct result of action by an ARA group. I can search and see if I have stored any of the details.

I would not normally advocate anything of this nature whatsoever as these breeders and stores are not breaking any laws but debate here and those pictures have. for the first time ever, changed my views on direct action, something I would normally be so against.

I am a strong advocate of education and so many other "righteous and correct" principles but the plain fact is that they do not listen and do not give a peas part about anything but the bottom line.

Properly organised and supported (both by people and factual literature) protests outside each of thier stores every Saturday for a couple of months would work. I would not be able, nor the right person, to organise such an event but I would be there every damn Saturday that's is for sure!
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Re: What action can we take in response to rodent farm thread?

Post by toyah » Fri Dec 14, 2007 9:06 pm

I would hate to see protesting at rodent farms get turned into something where the public are outraged, the RSPCA getting involved, and then their idea of a mandatory 4'x2'x5' cage per pair of rats becomes the legal minimum within the new codes of practices being drawn up for animal keeping. But this is just a problem with laws - some legislation [especially within the frameworks we have now] inevitably means more legislation at a later date.

Another problem is that our stance (I say "our" as the general view of the community here, though I know it's not universal) is not that we want better standards for rats that are bred for pet shops - we want the abolishment of rats bred for pet shops. We can't bully PAH into saying okay, we will only buy from local responsible code of ethic breeders, because that just wouldn't be acceptable and whatever action was started would continue.

I don't know the answer, I am just rambling here ...
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Re: What action can we take in response to rodent farm thread?

Post by Ratty Bob » Fri Dec 14, 2007 9:12 pm

toyah wrote:I would hate to see protesting at rodent farms get turned into something where the public are outraged,


indeed, and I was not advocating that but I would advocate educating the public outside of P@H and presenting them with facts about where the animals are sourced from.
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Re: What action can we take in response to rodent farm thread?

Post by Rasboozy » Fri Dec 14, 2007 11:06 pm

im more than happy to support in anyway I can, but im too stupid to work out how to sort the issue or arrange a peaceful protest :o

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Re: What action can we take in response to rodent farm thread?

Post by Estelle » Sat Dec 15, 2007 12:05 am

i really don't know what the answer is to fix the rodent farm thing - there are 2 sides to this really...

The 'easy' pet shop supply for 'pet' animals - easy to source from one place, convenient 'sale or return', effectively like any 'shop stock' the purchasing methods give them almost a form of guarantee that they would never really have got in the same way from a small scale hobby breeder. To probably quite a few staff in these shops, they don't actually understand that bringing up pets in the factory farming way is just downright cruel, that's if they even know anything about how the small animals they sell are raised or sourced from. Education, education, education is definitely the way to go on this front - showing images like these to anyone who will listen and hoping the 'pet market' side of this reduces to a point where pet shops decide that selling animals is not the way to do business. A lot of the smaller scale pet shops seem to have stopped selling animals and certainly around my way the only places left selling them are the one large 'name that shall not be mentioned' pet chain and garden centres. The garden centres tend to make the large chain actually look good in comparison, but all appear to be using rodent farms. :evil:

The other side is the herp side - the market is growing so the demand is increasing and the one thing clear from googling around 'frozen rodent suppliers' was there's a hell of a lot of places online you can buy them and there's obviously a very big and competitive market for them. I get the feeling many don't see past the dead animal and even think (or in many cases care) about how that animal was raised before it was killed, as long as their snake or reptile or bird of prey, gets its lunch (and probably as cheaply as possible).

This herp side is not going to go away and i suspect the 'pet' market in comparison is actually small fry compared to the frozen side at pretty much all rodent farms - the impression i got on visiting a few years back was that they didn't really care about the 'pet side', it was just 'supply and demand' so they were doing that as well as their traditional business of breeding rodents for food. I have to say that around the timescales i visited they didn't have much in the way of 'exotics', most of their rodents were traditional hooded, mismarked or PEW pet shop type rats, so the appearance of bigger moneyspinners like hairless clearly means they've changed direction and focus at least a bit since then and they probably have learned to understand the basics of genetics to 'make more' of the bestsellers.

As i said, i don't know what the answer is apart from education - there is a far bigger picture than rodents - look at battery chickens - why is there still a market for their eggs? - because they are cheapest and it seems that not everyone understands that a battery chicken's life is pretty grim. When it comes down to it, price pays a big factor in all this whether it be our food or our pets - the cheapest is usually from the worst raised/cared for and a lot of people really don't think (or in some cases can afford to think) beyond price. I don't have a problem with the food chain and animals needing to become something else's lunch whether it be ours or another animal because to me that is nature, but i'd like to think that any purchases i make, are towards better raised animals, even though i know it will cost me more than the cheaper badly raised version. I do think slowly many people are learning and prepared to do more hence the growth of things like the organic market, but i don't think everyone thinks about every corner of ours and our animals lives - back to education.

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Re: What action can we take in response to rodent farm thread?

Post by katielittle25 » Sat Dec 15, 2007 1:34 am

The ethics/philosophy of raising rats as food for snakes baffles me, because how many of us give our rats meat? A lot of us! And what research have we done into where our meat comes from? There are so many questions sprouting form this one problem...

Is it just me or has anyone else thought of moving to Tibet and becoming a monk? lol I have.

Lets start a new thread where we can discuss converting to Buddhism xx
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Re: What action can we take in response to rodent farm thread?

Post by sabrinasky » Sat Dec 15, 2007 3:33 am

If you ever ask in a large pet shop were they get their rats from they will either tell you:
Oh I don't know well I do but but sorry I've forgot.
A local breeder breeds for us.
The closest I was told was - somewere in Essex.

I got the opinion that part of the job discription in these establishments was not your animal tending skills but the ability to keep your mouth shut.

People should want to know were there pet came from, surely thats normal.

So WHY don't the pet stores want people to know? must be a reason for such a big secret.

So the shut your mouth evidence convinces me that YES the petshops themselves, are very much aware.

Like a good pet shop, even a "good "drug dealer knows exactly were his stock comes from!

From the seed to the moment it leaves the Mule's(smugglers) bottom!

My soapbox is giving me cramp now - Bye.

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Re: What action can we take in response to rodent farm thread?

Post by csi » Sat Dec 15, 2007 7:25 am

toyah wrote:Another problem is that our stance (I say "our" as the general view of the community here, though I know it's not universal) is not that we want better standards for rats that are bred for pet shops - we want the abolishment of rats bred for pet shops.


Personally I would say its the abolishment of all animals being sold in petshops
I personally care just as much for the hamsters bad breeding and fate as I do for the rats and would rather see legislation banning any live animal being sold, except through a licensed, registered breeder, that is inspected quarterly, on a no pre notification basis and on a 'one strike your out' system
I know that you believe that you understood what you think I said, but I am not sure you realize that what you heard is not what I meant.

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Re: What action can we take in response to rodent farm thread?

Post by Ratty Bob » Sat Dec 15, 2007 7:46 am

CSI I agree and debate on this forum has swayed me to support that view. Pictures that portray the reality that people (me) know exists but fail to acknowledge backed by rational argument can work, and have done so in my case.

As others have stated, their are other issues, but I would hate to see that single issue diluted by other valid but separate issues.

I have listened to the debate about selling pets in pet stores for years and I expect that I will still be listening in years to come and pet stores will still be selling pets :cry:

These stores are commercial interests - if you want to change their policy then directly hit their bottom line and that does not mean a few people boycotting the store and buying elsewhere - people have been doing that for years and we are still going round in circles. I don't doubt peoples genuine and admirable reasons for taking such a stance but it simply does not have any significant affect on the store.

A couple of dozen people supported by pictures and literature outside every P@H informing and educating customers as they go in about the trade that the store supports will have have a very real affect on the customers, the store, their HO, the local and national press and ultimately their board and share holders. It does not need. indeed should not be, confrontational as far as the public are concerned, simply informative and educational.

Ironically, I HATE this form of action and have always been so set against it as the store is not breaking the law but for the first time ever I would not only condone this type of action but give up my weekends to actively support this.
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Re: What action can we take in response to rodent farm thread?

Post by KathyM » Sat Dec 15, 2007 9:53 am

I'm not awake enough to post properly yet, but though I should add that you have to be very careful about standing outside that chain with leaflets, etc. Often they own space outside the shop too and if I remember rightly from the DNB campaign you have to have their permission (and possible council permission too if you're on public property).

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Re: What action can we take in response to rodent farm thread?

Post by Estelle » Sat Dec 15, 2007 10:34 am

katielittle25 wrote:The ethics/philosophy of raising rats as food for snakes baffles me, because how many of us give our rats meat? A lot of us! And what research have we done into where our meat comes from? There are so many questions sprouting form this one problem...

I'd say quite a bit of research has been done by some people in the process of looking for the best diet for our rats - feeding a rabbit food base (which will be vegetarian) and adding quality choice kibble or whatever method of fresh meat/proteins to me shows research and being careful about what our rats are being fed on. I would never again feed any rat food that already has meat in it because i don't trust the quality of the meat (generally chicken) used and underlying chemicals like growth hormones used to raise the meat seem to either cause or exasperate the appearance of tumours and mammary growths on rats.

sabrinasky wrote:So the shut your mouth evidence convinces me that YES the petshops themselves, are very much aware.

I am suspecting the shut your mouth evidence and the answers you suggested that are given by pet shop staff either indicates the management are hiding the source information from their staff (probably in some cases directives from head office that even the management of a branch may not know details of source, bar you order under this code from this supplier of this product) or the staff know but either told to shut up or would be too embarrassed to admit the true source knowing it would lose the sale... How many staff in a shop would know where management sources all their 'products' from or anything about the places the products are sourced from - let's face it, most managers would only see the 'rep' who comes in to seal the deal for a company to sell their product.

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