vegan rat food

Discuss what your rats eat. From general diet, food brands, eating problems and treat foods.
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MarieM
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Re: vegan rat food

Post by MarieM » Thu Mar 31, 2011 11:49 am

With any diet where the actual benefits are not really known or studied enough yet, its sensible to have people present the other side of the debate. Until such a time where veganism in rats has conclusively proven to not cause any problems, physically or mentally, there will always be those who are dubious or cautious of it, and I feel such concerns have as much right to be raised as they would for any other diet or rat care method.
What warrants 'conclusively proven to not cause any problems' in a meat based diet? A longer lifespan and fewer health problems all round is evidence enough for me from those I know feeding vegan. But, yes, more and more people feeding this way with good results would put it in better stance for choosing vegan. It just seems strange to 'single' out veganism as some sort of 'cautious of dubious' choice when a meat based diet has done nothing to provide evidence for glowing health and long lifespan!
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Re: vegan rat food

Post by MarieM » Thu Mar 31, 2011 11:54 am

All moral arguments aside (and I think these have been well covered) on wether we should do it or not I think we can agree that both diets can be healthy just as they can be unhealthy
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Re: vegan rat food

Post by Ziggy » Thu Mar 31, 2011 6:38 pm

MarieM wrote: It just seems strange to 'single' out veganism as some sort of 'cautious of dubious' choice when a meat based diet has done nothing to provide evidence for glowing health and long lifespan!
Because veganism is still a relatively 'new' concept, for rats and for humans. Any new diet is going to, quite rightly, raise concerns for a while until it is proven to be non-harmful.
For me, the biggest indicator that a omni diet is at least not harmful for rats is mother nature's endorsement of it. Unfortunately, a vegan rat diet doesn't have this, so it is likely to come under closer scrutiny than an omnivore one.

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Re: vegan rat food

Post by MarieM » Fri Apr 01, 2011 10:14 am

Can you give me proof that a meat based diet isn't harmful?
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Re: vegan rat food

Post by RetroLemons » Fri Apr 01, 2011 10:33 am

MarieM wrote:Can you give me proof that a meat based diet isn't harmful?
I understood that the idea was mother nature evolved rats to eat meat not be vegan, if it was unhealthy why wouldn't they have evolved to eat a vegan diet?

Which is what I got from the posts and what I believe myself.
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Re: vegan rat food

Post by Steven835 » Sat Apr 02, 2011 7:14 am

I just thought Id chime in here(I skimmed through this whole thread quickly).

I personally think a vegan/raw vegan diet can work out great for rats, and in my opinion they do not need meat proteins. I am raw vegan(nothing cooked) myself, which Ive experienced many health benefits from, and I think that my animals should experience the great benefits as well. But I am vegan for health, I respect those that choose to consume animal products and even animals that do. I have a dog and a cat as well, which I plan on switching over to raw in a couple months but their diet will be based in raw meats like they should, I would not force an animal to be vegan if I didn't think they could operate and live off of it properly(and since rats are similar to us, I think they can be vegan without problems). My current rat(and future ones I am acquiring in a few weeks) will be fed a raw vegan diet as I want to get to the source of if this kind of diet will work out in rats favor. Plus there will be no new information on the subject unless someone is willing to test it out on their animals after proper research has been done. I have written up a diet plan that would work for rats, which I have given it to someone that is very knowledgeable in rat nutrition and is plugging in numbers/nutrients to see if the diet is good and what I may have to adjust if not.

Anyway, this is just my two cents. :lol:

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Re: vegan rat food

Post by MarieM » Sat Apr 02, 2011 8:52 am

RetroLemons wrote:
MarieM wrote:Can you give me proof that a meat based diet isn't harmful?
I understood that the idea was mother nature evolved rats to eat meat not be vegan, if it was unhealthy why wouldn't they have evolved to eat a vegan diet?

Which is what I got from the posts and what I believe myself.

I also take my inspiration from Mother Nature but the fact is that when in captivity, our rats seem to be getting human diseases that animals in the wild do not get! Now, I know there are many reasons/causes for these type of things but I also believe that many of these ailments are directly related to diet. They would not be getting a lot of the foods we are feeding them as pets, in the wild. Diet and nutrition are a big part of what I do in my life and have been raw vegan myself for 10 years. I've done a lot of research and am happy to feed my rats this way too. :D
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Re: vegan rat food

Post by MarieM » Sat Apr 02, 2011 8:53 am

Welcome Stephen. :D
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Re: vegan rat food

Post by Snippet » Sat Apr 02, 2011 11:45 am

I'm sure wild rats DO get respiatory infections and tumors, but they don't live long enough after developing the condition for us to see them. And as for old age illnesses such as CHF, a wild rat is lucky if it reaches 12 months, so you probably would never see a wild rat suffering from it as they're long gone by the time that CHF starts to cause a problem.

For those who feed their rats a vegan diet- how do you feed baby/ young rats? As far as I know, baby rats -need- animal protein to support their fast growth. I also thought that protein from animal sources (such as egg) was much easier on the kidneys then vegan sources, which would make them better for older rats.
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Re: vegan rat food

Post by siberiankiss » Sat Apr 02, 2011 11:52 am

Steven835 wrote:I have a dog and a cat as well, which I plan on switching over to raw in a couple months but their diet will be based in raw meats like they should, I would not force an animal to be vegan if I didn't think they could operate and live off of it properly(and since rats are similar to us, I think they can be vegan without problems). My current rat(and future ones I am acquiring in a few weeks) will be fed a raw vegan diet as I want to get to the source of if this kind of diet will work out in rats favor.
I don't really understand this logic, if I'm honest - unless I've misunderstood.

You've said you will be feeding your cat and dog raw meat "like they should" - that's fine, I feed my cat and dog raw meat and bones too. But you won't feed rats animal protein/meat, even though that's exactly what nature dictates they eat (alongside vegetation etc). So why don't they apply to your "like they should" rule - but your cat and dog do?
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Re: vegan rat food

Post by siberiankiss » Sat Apr 02, 2011 11:56 am

MarieM wrote:Can you give me proof that a meat based diet isn't harmful?
Thousands of years of survival of the species. As has been said countless times, if it wasn't beneficial, they wouldn't have evolved to eat it. Personally, I think you are going against Mother Nature by restricting their diet in such a significant way.
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Re: vegan rat food

Post by MarieM » Sat Apr 02, 2011 11:59 am

Snippet wrote:I'm sure wild rats DO get respiatory infections and tumors, but they don't live long enough after developing the condition for us to see them. And as for old age illnesses such as CHF, a wild rat is lucky if it reaches 12 months, so you probably would never see a wild rat suffering from it as they're long gone by the time that CHF starts to cause a problem.

For those who feed their rats a vegan diet- how do you feed baby/ young rats? As far as I know, baby rats -need- animal protein to support their fast growth. I also thought that protein from animal sources (such as egg) was much easier on the kidneys then vegan sources, which would make them better for older rats.
Babies need sufficient protein, it doesn't matter which form that comes in.
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Re: vegan rat food

Post by Snippet » Sat Apr 02, 2011 6:36 pm

MarieM wrote:
Snippet wrote:I'm sure wild rats DO get respiatory infections and tumors, but they don't live long enough after developing the condition for us to see them. And as for old age illnesses such as CHF, a wild rat is lucky if it reaches 12 months, so you probably would never see a wild rat suffering from it as they're long gone by the time that CHF starts to cause a problem.

For those who feed their rats a vegan diet- how do you feed baby/ young rats? As far as I know, baby rats -need- animal protein to support their fast growth. I also thought that protein from animal sources (such as egg) was much easier on the kidneys then vegan sources, which would make them better for older rats.
Babies need sufficient protein, it doesn't matter which form that comes in.
I know that, but it's much harder (if not impossible) to get them to eat enough protein to keep up with their growth if you're only feeding vegan foods.
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Re: vegan rat food

Post by RetroLemons » Sat Apr 02, 2011 7:28 pm

I remember this came up before and Tabirat gave very large detailed answers and this paragraph stood out to me:
tabirat wrote:My dilemma is that feeding vegetable sources and animal sources of protein in a lab is never going to replicate a wide and varied diet (be that vegetable or animal based). So I would assume that the information that I want (ie is it possible to achieve optimum nutrition for rat mums and youngters on a vegan diet) actually isn't available - or likely to be. And since I can't rely on the anecdotal outcome (because under nutrition effectively extends lifespan) I personally feel that I have to go with the best that science has to offer. Which is that at least in the lab based studies available, vegetable protein sources cannot fully support the rapid growth phase.
You can view the entire thread here. The bit in bold seems most important about the issue with feeding babies a vegan diet.
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Re: vegan rat food

Post by Ziggy » Sat Apr 02, 2011 9:49 pm

MarieM wrote:when in captivity, our rats seem to be getting human diseases that animals in the wild do not get!
I'd like some evidence that wild rats don't get the same issues our pet rats get, otherwise this is just speculation. I've personally seen a wild rat with a tumour, at least.
Also, don't forget rats in the wild have an average life span of a year.
Im interested in what foods you think a rat on a good omnivore diet would be getting that would result in it having health issues it wouldn't get on a vegan diet.

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